【键盘侠】詹皇退役时将是史上第一？|他和乔丹谁更强？
2018-10-23 10:48:00 我乐直播 www.wolezhibo.com
Zach Lowe: "Lebron will be the greatest player by the time he retires if he hasn't already, at this moment he is neck and neck with Jordan as the greatest player ever. Once he posts 4 more monster years, statistically there will be no conversation" @32min
Lowe：“如果现在他还不是联盟第一人的话，那么当勒布朗退役之时他一定是最伟大的球员，在最伟大球员方面目前他几乎已经和乔丹并驾齐驱，一旦他再打出四个更禽兽的赛季，在数据方面他一定是毫无争议的史上最佳。”
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[–]Lakersshamrock8421 1320 points 4 days ago
The title of GOAT will ultimately be bestowed upon he whose version of “Space Jam” is superior.
湖人球迷：“史上最佳”的头衔最终将归属权将属于两位在“空中大灌篮”中的演技。
[–]NBANot_Me25 397 points 4 days ago
No way any new Space Jam touches the old one. Not a chance
不可能有任何续集比得上第一季空中大灌篮，所以勒布朗毫无机会。
[–][UTA] Donovan MitchellHydromorfiend 385 points 4 days ago
Nostalgia is a powerful thing
爵士球迷：怀旧永远是最强有力的东西。
[–]Lakersmodada 107 points 4 days ago
Hype too. There’s a reason why toy story 3 has a better IMDb rating than toy story.
湖人球迷：炒作同样也是，这也是为啥玩具总动员3在IMDB上的得分要远高于玩具总动员1。
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[–]Twoweekswithpay 2032 points 4 days ago*
I was there for Jordan, and yes, we were spoiled by the narrative that one guy is all it takes to win a championship, when in reality, it was the mix of the best player, an unusually unselfish great #2 in Pippen, good mix of role players, and a head coach/coaching staff that just knew how to maximize the best out of all their players.
In this fashion, Steph Curry is having the career MJ had. But the league is covered in a more nuanced way now and more people watch players on a night-in, night-out basis to recognize the difference between great stats and great players.
For me, I did think 6-0 trumped everything but with Lebron, i’ve Come to realize that it does matter who your teammates and coaches are. Lebron has never had a phil Jackson. Had Lebron joined the warriors instead Of Cleveland way back when after Miami, we’d be talking about him as the greatest ever, due to his likely 7th title this year. But, he chose the hard way and won one for Cleveland.
Michael had a lot of things working for him, including being drafted into a major market from the start. The one area that is hard to quantify though that seemingly gives MJ the edge is that in the way Lebron seemingly had a psychological grip on the raptors, michael had that over the entire league during his 6 titles. That’s something that really has only been seen a couple times since with Tiger Woods or Serena Williams, and those are individual sports.
The Bull’s dominance, only when MJ was on the team, led to a false equivalency, however, between being “the best player” and “winning a championship.” But, that’s okay. I think Lebron wins a championship with the lakers and he’ll be the first one to win 3 finals mvp’s for 3 franchises. He’ll be in the statistical top 5 all time in scoring and assists. And he’ll have the distinction of the greatest of his generation.
We’ll appreciate him much more after he’s gone. We’ll remember him as the guy who survived and thrived in the social media age without any major blips. And, he’ll leave us all in a better place from a fan’s perspective in knowing that in team sports, the best players give you the potential to win a championship, but to actually win it, it takes more than just “The Man.”
我是从乔丹那个时候看比赛过来的人，没错，我们实际上已经被某种只要靠一个人的全部就能赢得总冠军的论调给宠坏了，但实际上乔丹夺冠也需要最好的球员，他需要一个百年难遇的不自私极品二当家皮蓬、好的角色球员以及一众了解球员并且能发挥他们最大实力的教练团队。
从某种方面来说，斯蒂芬-库里现在在走乔丹的职业生涯，但是联盟现在覆盖面越来越精细，人们几乎每晚都可以看球，从而他们也可以认识到好的数据和好的球员之间的差距。
对于我而言，此前我以为总决赛六胜零负是乔丹压倒性的数据，但是看到詹姆斯之后，我觉得这同样取决于你的教练和你的队友，勒布朗从未有过菲儿-杰克逊这样的教练，要是勒布朗在从迈阿密回来选择加入勇士而不是骑士，我们现在都会讨论他是不是最伟大的球员了，因为如果加盟了勇士他可能就会有7个总冠军了，但是他选择了最艰难的道路——为骑士赢下一座总冠军。
乔丹身边的助力很多，他一开始就被芝加哥选中从而出生就是大球市，不过乔丹有一个优势是詹姆斯所无法比拟的，那就是勒布朗看起来只让猛龙有心理阴影，而乔丹在他六个冠军里几乎把所有球队都打得自闭了，这种现象只有在伍兹和小威身上出现过，但是这些都是个人运动了。
但是公牛的统治力，或者说乔丹在的时候公牛的统治力让人们形成了一种错误的等式，那就是“最好的球员”=“赢下总冠军”，当然这也没啥好说的，我个人认为詹姆斯会在湖人赢下他第三支球队的总冠军以及第三支球队的FMVP，他在得分和助攻上都会进入历史前五，他也会有这个时代第一人的头衔。
在詹姆斯退役之后，我们会更为他鼓掌，我们会记得这家伙在舆论媒体如此苛刻的情况下依然能如鱼得水，没有什么大的污点。并且詹姆斯能够帮助我们对于篮球有更好的理解：他让我们明白在团体运动中，最好的球员会给你赢球的潜力，但是要想赢，史上最佳一个人远远不够。
[–]crowntheking 569 points 4 days ago
This is a really great comment..
The Steph curry comparison is interesting and even if he wins this year no one is going to be calling him the greatest of all time. His situation is a lot more similar to Jordan's then LeBron's ever has been
真的是很棒的评论。
斯蒂芬-库里和乔丹的对比真的有趣，即使他今年再次获得总冠军估计也没有人会认为他是史上第一人，但实际上相较于勒布朗，他和乔丹的境遇更为接近。
[–]WizardsMarmaladeFugitive 374 points 4 days ago
KD robbed us of peak Curry. He probably wouldn't end up the greatest ever...but I sure as fuck wanted to see him try for it.
奇才球迷：杜兰特夺走了“巅峰库里”的表现机会，他可能真的成不了史上最佳，但是我真的很想看看他能为这个目标付出大量努力啊。
[–]Celticskilltasticfever 122 points 4 days ago
Not really, steph has MUCH more in terms of help/team than jordan ever did.
凯尔特人球迷：不太像，库里要比乔丹的助力多太多了。
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[–]peppermintpattymills 157 points 4 days ago
Displaying a Finals record as 6-0 is super misleading because it implies that 6-0 is better than 6-2. That's what bugs me about saying Jordan never lost a Finals. He also didn't make a Finals for the first like seven years of his career or whatever.
实际上总决赛六胜零负这个记录超级具有误导性，因为这暗示了6胜0负拿到总冠军要比6胜2负拿到总冠军强，但是最让我觉得强的是乔丹从来没输过总决赛，此前他从来没进过总决赛，在第六次拿到总冠军之后后面他也没进过总决赛了。
[–]76ersmatgopack 135 points 4 days ago
Agreed.
Playoff overall record: MJ: 119-60 (66.5%)
Lebron: 154-79 (66.1%)
Almost identical, with a larger volume for Lebron.
76人球迷：
同意
季后赛总体记录：乔丹119胜60负（66.5%）
詹姆斯：154胜79负（66.1%）
总得来说勒布朗的样本数量还大一些。
[–][TOR] Bruno CabocloXeibi 270 points 4 days ago
These younglings talking bout LeBron and Jordan...
smh back in my day Bob Cousy was the true GOAT, playing against true defenses and not this malarkey of the 80s, 90s, and 00s.
猛龙球迷：这些小年轻还是见风就是雨，天天讨论勒布朗和乔丹谁才是最强……
我那个时候鲍勃-库西才是神好么，他面对的是真正的防守并且还没有80年代、90年代以及00年代那么市场化。
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[–][OKC] Raymond FeltonDTttfu 497 points 4 days ago
Statistically definitely but not in accolades
雷霆球迷：在数据上肯定会是史上第一，但是在荣誉上一定不是。
[–][GSW] Stephen Curryec20 267 points 4 days ago
I understood Zach to mean that the greater longevity of strong statistical seasons, combined with the accolades Lebron does have, would make him the GOAT.
So not necessarily that peak Lebron was better than peak Jordan, but that Lebron's peaks combined with his longevity should make him the GOAT.
勇士球迷：我很理解Zach说的话，他的意思是勒布朗有着长久、持续的强大数据在加上他的荣誉可能会帮助他赢得史上最佳称号。
所以比较巅峰勒布朗和巅峰乔丹谁更强没有意义，但是勒布朗的巅峰以及持久度应该能让他成为史上最佳。
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[–][UTA] Donovan MitchellKingCrumble 124 points 4 days ago
I don't disagree with you - but I think this current Warriors team is probably more stacked than any team Jordan ever went up against.
Which is insane.
爵士球迷：我不是DISS你——但是我觉得现在的勇士可能要比乔丹当时对抗的所有球队要强得多。
这才是最恐怖的。
[–]danmaker99 234 points 4 days ago
Probably? This Warriors team is more stacked than any team ever, including Jordans.
可能？这支勇士要比史上所有球队更恐怖，包括乔丹的公牛好么？
[–]CavaliersJjab430 89 points 4 days ago
How many rings do you think Jordan would have if Hakeem, Barkley, Miller, and Mutombo teamed up in the middle of his prime?
骑士球迷：举个例子，如果当年巅峰乔丹面对的是奥拉朱旺+巴克利+米勒+穆托姆博组成的球队他能拿几个冠军？
[–][DET] Ben Wallacezm2485 94 points 4 days ago
Are you comparing Draymond to Barkley?
活塞球迷：你这是把巴克利比作格林？
[–]WestVerySadAllTheTime 134 points 4 days ago
On the other hand how many rings do you think he’d have if he teamed up with Stockton and Robinson
从另一个方面来看，你觉得乔丹如果和斯托克顿和罗宾逊组合在一起他能拿多少个冠军呢？
[–][CHI] Rajon Rondobluemagic124 160 points 4 days ago
Scottie Pippen is a HOF level talent in his own right
公牛球迷：斯科特-皮蓬有名人堂级别的实力啊。
[–]peppermintpattymills 98 points 4 days ago
The '94 Bulls won 55 games, Pippen averaged 22.0/8.7/5.6 with 2.9spg and they went seven games in the Eastern conference semis.
The '16 Cavs without LeBron probably wouldn't win 40 games or make the playoffs. Yeah Kyrie and Love are good. No they aren't that good.
别忘了94年的公牛在没有乔丹的情况下赢了55场，皮蓬场均22分8.7篮板5.6助攻还有2.9次抢断，并且带领球队在东部半决赛和别的球队鏖战七场哦。
16年的骑士如果没有勒布朗可能赢不下40场比赛，更别说打进季后赛了，欧文和乐福确实不错，但是他们没有皮蓬那么强啊。
来源：Reddit
编译：万事胜意
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